Different Knowledge
I hear men scoff...men who claim to have been Christians and now are not...but this shouldn't shock us.
The Bible tells us that God's covenant is two-fold, it has its blessings for faith and the good works that flow from faith...and it has its curses for unbelief and the disobedience that flows from unbelief.
A man can be in covenant with God and never truly be elect [secret things] or regenerate [also secret things]. But they are really and truly in covenant with Christ. The promises are for them but if the promises are not trusted and acted upon then they will produce no blessings.
This means that there may be men in covenant with God...really and for truly Christians...who know Christ in a certain type of knowledge but not in another kind.
Before I met my wife I might have read a book about her, about all of her qualities...but this isn't the same as the knowledge of knowing her...having a personal relationship with her.
The apostate thinks that he has tasted "fully" of the cup of life...when in reality he has only licked from the rim. He has had but a tid bit and has mistaken it for the whole.
I met my wife 12 years ago and I know her...not in "book" knowledge...or in a merely intellectual sense...but I know her in a relational sense.
I met Jesus Christ in the same way 15 years ago. I used to be a violent criminal...a man who loved evil, love violence, loved doing harm to others, lived for myself...and then I met the Savior...I met my Lord...and my life changed.
My atheist friends can try to come up with "mental" reasons for this change...but it is because I met God.
I would laugh if someone tried playing "intellectual parlor games" with me trying to prove to me that I never met my wife...showing me all of their logical reasons why this is impossible. I would laugh...because I know my wife, I met her...I have a ongoing relationship with her.
posted by Dale Callahan at 8:15 PM
9 Comments:
Dale,
Isn't there quite a big difference between Jesus and your wife? You can see your wife, touch her, talk to her, listen to her, enjoy life with her, etc. I'm not sure that's a good analogy. You can prove you've met your wife, you can't prove you've met Jesus. Those who share your "secret things" (there's that Gnostic heresy again) will accept your "proof" and those that don't won't.
I'm happy that you have changed your life, and I don't doubt that you had a strong emotional experience that you describe in religious terms as meeting Jesus Christ. That's fine, but it is not something that can be proven.
What's really interesting to me is your assertion that there are two types of Christians - those who "know Christ" with the secret knowledge and those who only know with the open knowledge. The Christian Apologetics and Research Ministry (www.carm.org) says "...generally speaking, Gnosticism taught that salvation is achieved through special knowledge (gnosis). This knowledge usually dealt with the individual's relationship to the transcendent Being." Aren't you slipping into this heresy?
You are using logic again aren't you...lol.
I don't get what you mean when you use the word...wife. You used it more then once. Am I to presume that you mean the same thing in each time you use it. If so...why should I assume the word "wife" has the same meaning every time?
There is a difference between secret knowledge and secret things. No finite being knows the secret things...there goes your gnostic heresy theory.
If no finite being knows the secret things and you are a finite being, how do you know there are secret things? If they are secret, how do you know about them?
You say that the only true Christians are those who know Christ in a certain type of knowledge, rather than another type of knowledge. If the kind of knowledge with which they must know Christ is one of the "secret things", how do they know when they have it? How do you know if they don't?
Sure is simple when you don't have to employ logic, isn't it?
Do you have children DL?
If you do then imagine you bought your daughter or son a birthday present. You are talking with your wife about the gift and the child walks in and says "what you talking about"? You say "about your birthday gift, your going to love it"...then the child says, "what is it daddy"? And you say..."sorry bud, its a secret".
At this point the child knows that there is a "secret" but he doesn't know "what" the secret is.
Look at 2 Cor 4:3-6. Fallen man's mind is in bondage to sin and can't see Christ for who He really is, because Satan is blinding them. But the same God who said "let there be light" in creation [do note that DL] also is the God who shines the light of the gospel into mens hearts, and allows them to see Christ for who he is.
Its not a secret knowledge that men can strive to attain. The bible clearly reveals Christ as glorious, as God. Sin distorts and covers this. God takes away the cover for those in whom He has chosen. God doesn't choose for merits that He forsees men do [in the future] but His choice is according to His own glorious will.
Salvation is by grace, not of works lest any man should boast.
Good try, Dale, but I wouldn't make a present a secret for long and I would enjoy looking at my child's face when they finally discovered the nature of the present. You apparently believe God keeps secrets forever, or at least until after you die - a bit withholding and abusive don't you think?
Some parts of the Bible claim that Jesus is God, notably John's gospel and the writings attributed to Paul. Given the strong hold this particular theological frame had at the time, it is questionable whether Jesus ever claimed to be God or whether the passages in the synoptic gospels that place such claims in his mouth were added later as aids to belief.
Paul, who never met Jesus and has nothing whatever to say about Jesus' teachings, wrote to a group of Greeks who were grappling with conceptualizing Jesus in the frame of Greek philosophy. Hardly a good place to find out good info on Jesus.
For one there is not a infinite gap between my child and myself. There will always be things about God that the creation will not fully be able to grasp. The truth that God is Triune is beyond man's full comprehension.
When I hear you explain how you would handle your son you are assuming that as a 5 year old he experiences time in the same way you do, don't you.
I hear my children say all the time "dad I can remember a 'long' time ago we did this or that" and as I hear their story I realize that this was only a year ago. But to the five year old a year is 1/5 of his whole life. To me its only 1/40.
To the Eternal One we are told that a 1000 years is as one day. This isn't a cruel father tormenting his children. He too will be delighted to see the joy on their faces as they grasp certain truths.
Great. Then 1000 years from now, we will know what the "secret things" are. Ergo, it naturally follows that concerning oneself with those "secret things" or even with the presence or non-presence of such "secret things" is a colossal waste of time.
So we're back to the original case. You know your wife exists because you can see her and touch her. You know Christ exists but you can't see him or touch him. Not the same. Not even close.
So if I claim to know the Flying Spaghetti Monster and have a personal relationship with him, how would you prove that I don't? How would I prove that I do? Can't be done.
I would be more concerned if you could prove "proofs"...but as time goes on you are showing that you haven't even tried to put your own beliefs on the hot seat.
Now you may be one of these cowboys who says I was raised in the Christian faith. Well the bible speaks about covenant breakers...people who enter covenant and don't endure.
I can also answer...well I was raised as an atheist.
I know that my post was subjective...I didn't intend for my personal experience to become an objective truth. But the Christian faith is objectively true and it also has a subjective side. I met God, He changed my life, He continues to work in my through His Word and Spirit. Do I realize that the unbeliever rolls his eyes at this. Of course I do. But I also know that if men tried their best to get rid of any evidence that proved Jesus was God [killing Lazarus after Jesus rose him from the dead]then unbelievers will not accept a man being spiritually raised from the dead either.
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