And In This Corner....Weighing In At....
Imagine fighting in a league where you kicked butt every time you got into the ring.
You figured out that your opponents had serious defects in their fighting style.
Because of their defects, you could always find the weak spot and either knock them out with your power or submit them with your style.
Now imagine the league begins to allow new fighters into the ring.
Guys who don't follow the fighting techniques of the other guys.
You find that these new guys don't fall for your moves and at the same time you can't figure out their moves.
Soon you are calling them "cheats" and telling them that they have to fight according to the same style as your other opponents.
But you can't actually prove they are "cheats", you just can't beat them.
For centuries Christians have been using faulty techniques to defend the faith.
In their trying to defend the faith they have actually gone against the faith they were trying to defend.
They acted like the unbelievers mind was not fallen and under the grips of sin.
They acted like the unbelievers mind was not against God and was not actively suppressing the truth.
These apologists came up with philosophically weak arguments for the existence of God...pretending to be neutral [so why were they arguing] and asking the unbeliever to also be neutral, and they began to defend the faith with these weak arguments.
Philosophically "keen" unbelievers saw these "weak" spots and began to pound these Christians arguments down to the canvas.
For the philosophically simple, the cosmological, and teleological arguments seemed very powerful indeed, but for someone who had further philosophical training it didn't take long to bring down these fighting techniques.
But what we need to understand is that Christians who used these arguments...and still use them...are not being honest.
They have "pretended" to be neutral but weren't.
They treated the unbelievers reasoning abilities "as if" they were normal and unfallen even though the Bible says they are neither.
And in the end they keep taking a beating...all the while the confidence of the unbeliever grows and grows [to very arrogant proportions].
The Bible tells us not to be neutral...its says we can't be neutral...neutrality is a myth...a lie.
Another school of defending the faith says if we have presuppositions why try and hide this fact?
If God's word is our ultimate authority why not treat it as such.
God's word just won't be the conclusion we try to bring the unbeliever to, it will also explain to us the "method" we use for doing so.
The Transcendental Argument for the existence of God says that God's Word is the precondition for intelligibility...without it you cannot "consistently" prove anything.
Note that I say "consistently".
Unbelievers do use logic, they use science [which can only work being founded on induction or the uniformity of nature], and they use moral standards...but they do so because they are borrowing from God's world [without asking and giving thanks] and then using these things to try to discount the very thing that makes sense out of them...the Triune God of Scriptures.
The Presuppositionalist Apologist isn't going down for the 8 count because he has learned not to follow the destructive techniques of the Evidentialist Apologist.
The unbeliever doesn't like these "new" techniques [even though they aren't new] so he calls "cheat"...he wants the Presuppositionalist to go back to the old fighting techniques that he has learned to undo.
Those days are over...
7 Comments:
At long last you finally admit it: "The Transcendental Argument for the existence of God says that God's Word is the precondition for intelligibility...without it you cannot "consistently" prove anything."
Translated into English, this means that you cannot prove the existence of God without presupposing that God exists - in other words, you can't. I'm glad to see you admit failure.
Of course, you are even wrong in defeat because you clearly misrepresent the argument in the first place. The argument is not about the "existence of God", but about the ideas you have about God. That's why you find the statement above to be comforting or instructive in some way.
You are not arguing for or against the existence of God, but for your peculiar ideas about the nature of God gleaned from an interpretation of a collection of books you refuse to study rationally and scientifically. The real premise should be restated "My argument for my interpretation of the bible is dependent upon my interpretation of the bible."
You are very keen in criticism and as everyone has observed...very poor in defending and justifying your own worldview.
Keep on borrowing from my worldview in order to try and tear it down.
Hopefully one day you will come to your senses and realize you are dining at the pig trough.
We have gone through all this before and its like hitting your head against the wall...it feels so good when you stop.
If we all adopted your view of religious interpretation and broadened it to all of life then we would all have to be skeptics because no one would be able to define everything...because "who knows"?
Is "...dining at the pig trough" your argument here?
If we adopted your worldview and broadened it to all of life we would be living in the Dark Ages again without science or history or the ability to distinguish between fact and fiction.
Let's get back to the point. I am not arguing for or against the existence of God. If am arguing about your idea about God based on your interpretation of the bible. You have no defense for your position other than that it is your position that you are correct. Is that not correct?
DL, At this point in our arguement I do not feel pressured to argue...you use proofs but cannot justify why this even makes sense in a random chance, material only, naturalistic universe.
Your religion has done this for so long now that you can't even imagine how to try and justify your beliefs.
You haven't answered me in my question back at you. Do you use your definition of interpretation on all of life, or just "conveniently" on religious matters.
If we all adopted your view of interpretation on language then no one would know anything...especially regarding historical writings...but you don't take your own medicine...you just hand out prescriptions to others when it suits you.
Your religion is so established in the thought of North America that even many Christians assume the "normalacy" of unbelieving thought...and argue with this assumption in mind...but not all of Christiandom has fallen for this lie.
You keep using your reason to prove all your "facts"...in the end you still haven't said anything.
I say this because if for one minute you actually adopted your professed beliefs you could do nothing...think, speak, or act.
". Do you use your definition of interpretation on all of life, or just "conveniently" on religious matters?"
On all of life. I look for evidence before trusting in what I hear from science or history, just like I do when I hear people talk about the bible.
Does that mean that no one "knows" anything? It means that the bar for assuming anything is an absolute fact is set very high and that we live with the doubt. That is exactly why we have made so many great achievements in science. If scientists had believed the work of previous generations was incontrovertible fact, they would never have performed the experiments that proved those ideas wrong. The demand for proof is responsible for the scientific achievements of mankind.
The same demand for proof informs us, hopefully, on many other levels. We don't believe what is in our history books when one contradicts another. We don't believe what politicians tell us. We don't believe everything we read in the papers or see on TV. If we did, we would be sheep following some fascist leader blindly into oblivion.
I read your post...you write assuming that I am going to be able to interpret what you mean...thus showing me that you do have a two fold system of interpretation. One that you reserve for religious matters and the other for everyday language.
As I read your comment I just scratched my head and wondered...what is he trying to get across...I saw all these words in front of me...how was I to know in which way to interpret them...oh me oh my.
I'm sorry you have a problem with elementary reading comprehension, Dale. Why not try taking my words literally like you do the bible?
It's pretty simple really.
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